討論紀要（2010/3/3） Part1： about 四方面的描述法

1. 有關用四個方面（所謂相、味、現起、足處）來說明究竟法

這次學習。大家通過重讀和重聽開印比丘的錄音，有了更清楚的了解。在討論之前我們有一些討論。這里後面摘錄了過往的EMAIL。這次討論的新的發表：

王岷摘自開印比丘開示：SARS為例：SARS病毒為近因，感染上是現起，作用是發燒咳嗽等是作用，特相為醫生診斷“這是SARS"。
大家認為：近因到作用和特相是由內及外的。
Sherman師姐提到。四門分析的方法的要點是如實知見究竟法。近因不見得是一個，可能是多個；
現起到重點是過程；作用是比較（特相）深層的。特相是表面化的形容。


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- Xiaoping:
To be honest, I started reading chapter 2 and found I have very basic questions about the 4 categories used to describe a 究竟法， 也就是相、味、現起和足處。 我感覺書上的定義都很模糊。在心所的敘述上，更覺紛亂。

我感覺在這一章邏輯上三部分：

第一部分： 對心所的描述
第二部分： 相應理
第三部分： 攝理

In the first part, I feel difficult to understand each description. Close the book, given one, I can not remember the description because I do not fully understand it. I think I need some help there.

I suggest we may go through some important ones ( the unwholsome ones) together, even in different languages.

- Reply from Sherman：
response to Brother Lin question: the following is from 清 淨道論 ( both language's translation)

什么是戒的相、味、现起、足处

（相）戒虽有多种，唯戒行为相。

Characteristics, varies types
犹如种种色，可见性为相。
譬如青黄等色，虽有种种的区别，而色处的特相总不出于可见性。同样的，戒虽有思等的种种区别，总不出于以正持身业等及保持善法的戒行为相，所 以说戒之相为戒行。
（味）摧毁诸恶 戒，具足诸善德，function,( nature and its accomplishment)
作用成就义， 是即名为味。
此戒能摧毁诸恶戒，是以作用之义为味;其次具诸无罪之德，是以成就之义为味。然在相等之义的味，只可说作用或成就为味（不是 食味等的味）。
（现起、足处）智 者说净为现起，（现起manifested --traits , 足处immediate cause/proximate cause
解释惭愧为足处。
所谓「身净、语净，意净」（注一三），这是说净为此戒的现起。因为由净性的显现而取为状态故。智者曾说惭与愧为戒的足处。足处是近因的意思：因为有惭愧才能产生及存续戒律，如果没有惭愧便不能产生及存续戒律。
当知这是戒的相、味、现起、足处。

 

from HanLin & Xiaoping

Thanks for Brother Hanlin's input. Very good input. See in the message for more comments...

On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 6:44 PM, Hanlin Wang <Hanlin.WANG@usa.dupont.com> wrote:

Thanks Brother Xiaoping for bringing up a very good question and Sister
Sherman's excellent quote.  Sorry I didn't respond earlier.  Below are my
questions/comments:

1.  How to differentiate  （相）and (现起)?  Reading Sister Sherman's
quotes, it is still hard for me to understand the difference.  It seems
that "Characteristics" is the definition, "Manifestation" is the underlying
meaning of the definition.

My confusion is the same, even read repeatedly in different languages. Last week when our Sunday reading study the MP3 from Bhikku KaiYin, the 4th or 5th session of MP3 recording, He explained it in the following steps:

(1). An immediate cause/proximate cause exists first then comes
(2). Menifestation and further it will take a role and make a
(3) Function
(4) It will show the characteristics finally.

Last November, when we saw him in Canada, he said, the key to mastering or seeing a dhamma is the Function. Pay attention to Function is the way to catch for the practitioners. Why? Other brothers and sisters may remember it better. We may also think about discussing this? Just a suggestion  

2. Regarding 相應理 and 攝理, it is the best to use the "correlation
matrix", not reading the book line by line.  When we went through the book
the first time, I created an excel spreadsheet showing the correlation.  I
have been using the correlation since then and found it is very helpful.

 I  agree on this. I am not sure of everyone has the book by Ming Fa Bihikku “表解”？ I email them at least the first 2 chapters to the ones needed.

3. I have the same difficulty to clearly understand 心所.  I guess the
issue maybe related to the fact some of them are the descriptions of mental
phenomenon at microscopic level (time scale).

I think we should try our best to understand even we know that we can not see clearly the microscopic level yet. Remeber even recite them and investigate them. This might be the word 遍知 describes. Sister Min Wang recently is reading about 如理作意。 Her reading corrected her idea about the  如理作意. I feel that understanding the 名法 is very important to start doing 如理作意。When I wrote the first email, I was thinking about understanding the unwholesome 心所 is most important. After several day's reading, I found it might not be correct. 遍一切也很重要。 Thinking about the meditation, I often messed the 作意 and 尋 以及 侍。Clarifying the concepts may also benefit our meditation practice.

We can certainly discuss more in teh next group study.  I agree with
Brother Chian that let's just focus on one portion of the chapter.  I also
like Sister Sherman's suggestion of spending ~10-20 min on "Path of
Purification".

I agree on this too.

From： HangLin:
Excellent.  It starts to make a lot of sense.  Let me apply the "time
sequence" to Sister Sherman's example,Sila to understand 相、味、现起、足处
:

1.  因为有惭愧, 我們才能遠離惡法, 即使因緣現起, 也不去造惡 - 惭愧為戒[法]的
[足处, 近因];
2.  因为遠離惡法, 身口意就會清淨, 戒[法]得以顯現 - 清淨為戒[法]的現起;
3.  戒的[現起]產生摧毁诸恶戒,具诸无罪之德的功能 - 摧毁诸恶戒,具诸无罪之德為
戒[法]的[味];
4. 身口意的清淨表現與外在, 就是[諸惡末做,諸善奉行]的[戒行] - 戒行為戒的[相
].

以[相、味、现起、足处]來了解一[法], 能更全面掌握[法]的全貌.  以戒殺為例.
如只從[相]上來理解, 把[不殺戒]等同於不去殺, 那許多草食動物不就是在持這一戒
了嗎.